Ecosystem Compilation - Innovative Revenue Leader Podcast
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Speaker 2: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Innovative Revenue Leader Podcast. I'm your host, Seth Mars. Join me as we deliver practical insights to help B2B CROs Find new and innovative ways to grow in this fast changing environment. The Innovative Revenue Leader is sponsored by Sandler, a triad company, empowering sales professionals and leaders to master the craft of selling at all levels.
seth-marrs_2_06-05-2026_092457: we...
Sandler's releasing a new solution. It's called the Sales Performance Ecosystem, it enables companies to ensure the adoption of their training and make sure that the skills they invest in convert into revenue . Now, the,
eilon-reshef_1_05-20-2026_150720: we,
we at Gong kind of work with, uh, numerous B2B kind of revenue organizations. Uh, what excites me right now is the increasing potential of, um, call it AI, right? Or agents [00:01:00] or, um, uh, technology, um, to kind of, uh, maybe takes-- take revenue to the next level. And what I mean by this is everybody's using like a Claude or OpenAI or something for personal productivity, like write me an email or, or whatnot.
This is, this is happening all the time. And what's happening when you sort of, uh, um, systemize it with a system, again, such as Gong, but in general, the capability of a system to go back and do, call it process mining or understand what's, what's working in your organization. So imagine you're upselling a product, and then AI goes and says, "Hey, what's working for you in your organization?"
Then scans all of your conversations, emails, uh, outcomes, whatnot, comes back with this recipe. That was always an almost intractable problem in its own, right? Intelligence. How do you even know this? And this is just phase one. And now what if you can go and, and be this like, hey, from this, create me whatever, call it an agent or a system or an AI process that now goes back and helps or automates the people.
So now if you know how to sell product X, it basically goes to every one of your deals and says, "Hey, [00:02:00] with this deal, you should be doing that." In the past, they used to call it next best action, but next best action was always like limited to some sort of like a very high prescriptive stuff, or it was kind of getting confused with like sort of...
And now specific to this, what I learned about this is the blueprint that you want to do, apply it at scale, see how it works, and close the loop again and again and improve, improve, uh, uh, uh, close this loop. So I feel this is sort of the next generation of how people, you know, maybe potentially run repeatable businesses in general.
But since I'm mostly kind of concerned with revenue organizations, definitely the way to run revenue organizations moving forward.
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: The way I practice things are maybe quizzes, maybe back and forth live human role plays, maybe in front of my mirror. And then the way we apply things is on the live call, the live customer interaction, the live discussion. The issue is these three pieces have always been completely fragmented. the
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yep
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: layer, learning is restricted to my LMS, maybe my [00:03:00] CMS if I'm in the sales world. Practicing is cobbled together things with enablement and a human in the loop, and doing is my actual call, Zoom, Gong, et cetera.
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: vision at Yoodli is build a single platform that ties all three together in a really simple way. I come to Yoodli, my AI coach, let's call it Seth AI, explains concepts to me, right? So I'm onboarding at Google and Seth AI's like, "Varun, welcome to Google. Here are the five things you need to know. We call ourselves Nooglers. Here's our mission, here's our vision, here's a hero page
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: for what questions you have." The same way a manager would onboard me or teach me stuff, my Yoodli coach is now doing. I'm learning with the AI. I can interrupt
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: fast-forward, it's interactive, I can go back to it. Then my coach is like, "Cool, Varun, it seems like you're ready for game time. Let's go practice." And then it
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: hyperrealistic simulations.
This can be multi-persona with a buying committee. This can be
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: my coach is on the call and saying, "No, no, no, Varun, you botched, uh, number two." It could be, um, a single [00:04:00] role play where I've got to share my screen and do a demo certification. So learn with my AI coach, I practice with my AI role plays, and then I go and I apply the actual thing.
This could be anywhere, in person, on a call, et cetera. Yoodli closes the loop between all three things, so what I learn is tied to what I practice. Then based on what I actually do, let's call it my gong call, Yoodli will create custom coaching, custom role plays and say, "Hey, let's walk through that gong call with your AI coach."
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah.
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: Like some random scorecard. My AI coach will share its screen and say, "Varun, let's scroll to minute forty-five and watch it together and cringe together. What,
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: what, like, what were you thinking when you handled that competitive o-objection?" The same way a human would. And then based on minute forty-five, it'll create custom training. Learn, practice, do. Learn, practice, do. Learn, practice, do. That's the loop that we're closing at Yoodli.
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: And like coming from it, like I know that you guys are focusing on go-to-market, and we benefit greatly for the work that and the focus that you have there. The thing I think makes [00:05:00] you stand out that's, is that learning focus at the end of the day. You're, you're building for a, a learner to make a learner better and to have them grasp the concept in whatever way possible.
And that really resonated me- with me back when we met and we were talking about this. And I think it's a superpower when we go into conversations around go-to-market, because I know the partner that I have on the role-play side isn't trying to just run a role play for a salesperson. You're trying to help people learn. It
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: I see a lot of people talking about how AI can save you time, or AI can do this task for you, or AI can do that, which I think is super important and there's, there's value there.
But what I don't see a lot of people talking about is where AI can, can also help you become a better version of a, of yourself, a better seller, a better, uh, sales leader, a better whatever position it is that you hold by not only just taking some things off your plate, but saying, "Hey, when, when you sent that email, [00:06:00] here's a few areas where it could've been tighter," or, "When you had that call, here's a few ways that you could have done this section better." And actually, you know, having real-time feedback to a lot of things that we've never really had feedback on in, in the sales world.
Um, the second piece that's, is pretty different, but it's where I kind of see sales tech going, with the different roles that I, I hold, one of the biggest challenges I see when it comes to sales technology adoption
seth-marrs_22_06-12-2026_150813: Yeah
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: of adoption, right?
I mean, I'm sure you've seen it, but,
seth-marrs_22_06-12-2026_150813: Totally
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: some reps just aren't used to using the tools that a lot of reps are gonna have to use the next few years to be successful. But what I'm excited about is I see AI as not just another tool or type of technology to learn, but almost like an orchestration layer that manages the technology for the reps. So what I mean by that is, let's say a rep is using a CRM, they're using a email and calendar tool, maybe they're using a database tool. They have all this technology out there that they have to learn, and that's hard [00:07:00] enough as it is as a rep to do your main job and that. In the future, what I see is there's these tools like Claude or Codex by ChatGPT or whatever it is that you can connect to, and as long as you know how to ask for what you're looking for, it can go and do that work.
And I see that being a huge, uh, advantage as we look at how do we improve sales tech adoption so it becomes easier for a rep to integrate and, and, uh, operate with these tools rather than it just being another thing to add to their list of things to learn. those two things are where I'm, I'm most excited these days.
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: So every Monday, when a seller logs into Udly, for better or for worse, the platform has completely changed, right? They go in and they're like,
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah.
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: God, this was not I... " And I love that. And we are not the only ones with this problem. I think, uh, large companies are facing that as well. The way we solve for that is with our ever-boarding agent. tactically, the way it works is as soon as I ship anything, our agent will pull from your knowledge [00:08:00] sources. So it might be Jira, Slack, GitHub, whatever your developers pu- uh, push changes to. on that, the agent will be smart enough and say, "Okay, great. Here are the fifteen changes that happened.
Here are the five that are most important." Right? You change your positioning a bit, you launch this new functionality you need to talk about, and oh my God, you finally released this, uh, piece of code that will increase your competitive differentiation.
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yep
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: automatically create a training tutor. So this is, you know, a five-minute, uh, interactive role play, let's call it
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yep
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: AI. Every Monday morning at eight AM, my sellers will get a Slack message and a calendar invite saying, "Here's your five minutes of training for the week." Literally, that's it. They click on it. Seth AI is like, "Varun, welcome aboard. Here are the five things that changed last week." Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I can skip around.
I can say, "I got it. I don't care about this." It's all interactive.
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: It's not passive, multiple choice, read a PDF,
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yep
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: video. I can be like, "I understand all five. I'm good to go." Then at the end, the AI's like, "Great, Varun. Here are three [00:09:00] questions. You have this upcoming deal. How are we gonna talk about X, Y, and Z?" Boom, the seller is good to go. And then for me as a leader, every Wednesday, I get a report saying, "Ninety-five percent of your reps are ready for game time based on last week's changes." This is automatic. This is agentic. I think this
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah.
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: Future of the world. Training is no
seth-marrs_3_06-17-2026_133755: Yeah
varun-puri_1_06-17-2026_103755: the bottleneck sandbag that's dragging everyone back.
lisa-ellis--she-her-_1_06-23-2026_100711: So I think one of the things that everybody can relate to is taking a multiple choice exam. We all went through it in school. Um, you go to a class, you pass the class because you take an exam and you show what you know. That is knowledge transfer. So I can recall facts and dates. You might even have a really tough exam where you're having to synthesize multiple points of information together, form an opinion. Maybe you need to demonstrate a skill you've learned. This is where AI role play comes in. Um, and so you can show what you know. That's where most training and learning [00:10:00] stops because the institutions that are putting on the training or hosting it are not where you are going to go and live that information, where you need to retrieve it, where you need to make sure that those skills show up on a Tuesday afternoon discovery call. So that, that next layer is embedding behaviors, and I like to think about this as the accountability layer. Um, for a long time in the industry, what I would hear is, "We need to be in the flow of work. We need to put our content in the flow of work, um, and, and make reinforcement come up." I'm sure many salespeople and revenue leaders remember when, I think it was Qstream first came out, and it's like, "We're gonna send you
squadcaster-jf2a_1_06-23-2026_130712: gonna say
lisa-ellis--she-her-_1_06-23-2026_100711: messages," and basically take
those
squadcaster-jf2a_1_06-23-2026_130712: remember that
lisa-ellis--she-her-_1_06-23-2026_100711: assessments and break them down into a text message and, like, that was the idea of microlearning to reinforce concepts.
Now, spaced learning and repetition absolutely helps you with recall. what we found in the academic research is that doesn't necessarily [00:11:00] correlate to skills implementation at work. So you can remember what to do, you can know what to do, but you're not gonna do it unless the environment supports it. So when I'm talking about embedding behaviors and where that knowing-doing gap starts to open up, it's because the environment you go back to working in doesn't have the visibility and reminders and prompts in place to cue you to form those new habits
So like
squadcaster-jf2a_1_06-23-2026_130712: Yeah. That's fair.
lisa-ellis--she-her-_1_06-23-2026_100711: Really well-trained manager who knew Sandler, who could go on a ride-along and give great feedback. But there are so many failure points in that model. Manager availability, their knowledge of the methodology, their ability to give good coaching feedback and provide insights. is, is, uh, like I mentioned before, it's still really critical, but the technology that exists today lightens the load and reduces the failure point on the managers, right? So that I think is really critical. [00:12:00] The other thing that I think is really interesting and nuanced about methodology measurement for machines. These machines are not designed to track like emotions or any type of sentiment, and we know that people buy emotionally and justify
squadcaster-jf2a_1_06-23-2026_130712: Yep
lisa-ellis--she-her-_1_06-23-2026_100711: And that's w- of the core of what Sandler teaches you to get at, is to make that emotional connection, build those strong relationships. So finding ways to measure that through these technologies, you have to be looking at it from so many different angles, be able to say, "Okay, an upfront contract starts at the beginning of the call," but maybe like there's a slight side quest 'cause you're adapting to somebody joining the meeting late, somebody has to leave early. You've got to recover and bring that back in. So you need to cover all of those interesting edge conditions of human behavior and what happens in a real live call so that [00:13:00] you are looking at the whole picture. and, and that is fundamentally very challenging to do. Now, we've made attempts in the past where we would have keyword trackers, like if time or, you
squadcaster-jf2a_1_06-23-2026_130712: Yeah
lisa-ellis--she-her-_1_06-23-2026_100711: or like some of those like buzzwords were included, we were looking for those.
But they were so limited in what they would actually catch, and they would misfire more often than not
squadcaster-jf2a_1_06-23-2026_130712: It's-- Yeah, it's, it's, it's fascinating to think about how that, how that works because, like, we see our franchisees and we see others spend a lot of time learning it, and the, the, the way it happens, the magic would happen in an individual. Like, I was talking to someone the other day, and they're like, "I just need one.
I just need two people to really get it, and it would pay for itself."
squadcaster-f146_1_06-05-2026_082457: Every- everybody's talking AI, so it's no surprise that I'll speak about something related to AI. But, um, the World Cup is coming up And I saw, I think it was the, the chief
seth-marrs_2_06-05-2026_092457: Yep
squadcaster-f146_1_06-05-2026_082457: operating officer of, uh, US [00:14:00] Soccer on some podcast or videocast or something like that, but he was talking about the implications of AI for soccer, and he basically goes into this whole, um, a- analysis very, very positively about how AI is being used to help them scout players anywhere on the planet through, through video and how this is just a huge leap, right?
Like, you think about that, that role of, of the scout in any major sport. You're on planes, you're, you're watching film and these kinds of things. Like, you're, you are very much limited in that capacity by, uh, the cost and the resource of the individual human. But, but AI, they basically can watch any game from around the world.
They can key in on the specific kinds of skills that they're looking to, to fill gaps on their own teams, um, a- and even read a lot of the things that, that, that you may not pick up with, with your eye, the patterns of a player over time and how they perform at different points in the match and that kind of thing, and against different kinds of competition.
So of, of course, like any good B2B leader, you, you, you see the [00:15:00] whole world through the lens of, uh, of your B2B sales, and that'd be like the, the nat- most natural thing, but I truly mean it. But c- but the part of, um, that video that stood out to me was that he actually pivoted at the end and he said, "What this means, though, isn't that the, the scout becomes less valuable to us.
The scout actually becomes incredibly valuable to us in a different way because, uh, it, it allows us, that scout, to then key in on the intangibles," basically. Like, how, how does the, the, the player take coaching? What's their body language after a bad play? And, and like any, uh, coach or, or, or managing director of, of, of a team's looking at, you're going like, that's really...
There's a lot of those X factors that you're never gonna be able to quantify or, or see. And so as I think about what that means and even some of the, the conversations you and I have and the research that, that we've been doing, you know, the, the implication that AI is just going to remove the salesperson or remove so much of the, the human, I think is totally wrong.
And I believe that, [00:16:00] in this world, like the human becomes even more valuable because the AI is making those measurable, those patterns, those kinds of things cheap. The, the unmeasurable things becomes the whole ballgame for, them. And so to me, I guess the, innovative thing that I'm seeing and it's spending a lot of time in my head on is, a reversal of how sales technology's always worked.
It's, it's, it's actually looking at how do we justify, um, even more and amplify the value of the human in a more empathetic and, and, and real way to be able to, to take advantage of what the human does versus the technology and really how those two work together
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: the more you think about the topic, the harder it gets when you
seth-marrs_22_06-12-2026_150813: Yeah.
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: Think about it, right? You
seth-marrs_22_06-12-2026_150813: It's true
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: like, wait, you know, the one thing I hear, especially in the CRM world when I'm building sales processes for different sales teams, is I hear, "We're, we're a little bit unique," right?
seth-marrs_22_06-12-2026_150813: Yeah,
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: every single
seth-marrs_22_06-12-2026_150813: Yeah
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: right?
And there's truth to that. There's... Sales is not [00:17:00] a, hey, you start here every single time this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens, that happens, and it's always that process.
seth-marrs_22_06-12-2026_150813: Yeah
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: sometimes you're working with a new client, sometimes you're working with a current client. Those are two different sales processes, two different sets of steps that you go through.
So like how you actually deploy the skills, where you deploy the skills, how you're talking to a client that you have a relationship with when you take them through a pain funnel versus a, a new client, those are two different things. So we had to do a lot of, of revising and testing and, and, um, just taking a look at how are they scoring and putting in qualifiers and, and details to say, "Hey, when this happens, look for this.
When that happens, look for this," to where, you know, we've developed, like you said, these nine-page or very long and extensive prompts that kind of call out all the different use cases where skills can be applied, as well as the watch outs, the things to look for, so that it's not just, hey, you know, did I take this person through a pain funnel?
But it's looking for the different steps. It's saying what it should [00:18:00] look for and what it shouldn't look for. It's looking for what the buyer language and response should be to that. So it's a lot more, um, ideally a lot more accurate and a lot easier to trust that as a sales leader that if it's saying, "Hey, this rep is here, this rep is here," you can say, "Okay, well maybe I should focus coaching here for this rep and, and there for that rep." So you actually have something that you can, you can use.
seth-marrs_22_06-12-2026_150813: Yeah. It's not like, um, it's very easy to go into an LLM and get a summary back on something that'll give you generally decent feedback. It feels like the difficulty becomes when you try to tie that to a score and then tie that to a score across thirty calls, twenty calls, ten calls. Like to do that really well is very, very different than just like, "Hey, give me feedback."
jordan-ledwein_1_06-12-2026_150812: Completely. Well, and especially like, you know, I think we're a little bit lucky 'cause we're getting to do it within the, the realm of Sandler, and
most of our clients are following some form of a structured process. But, you know, I'm sure a lot of sales leaders could even say, "There's a lot of my reps that take their clients through different sales processes on [00:19:00] different days for different deals when they maybe shouldn't."
So there's a lot of just things that you had to kind of, or we had to account for as we built these. Um, but also we're able to at least help sales leaders identify with a level of accuracy, are they trying to do the skills? And if they're
trying them, how well are they doing them? Which I think is really the feedback that a leader needs to, to understand, is this training working? Is, is the investment worth it? And then what are we getting from it?
eilon-reshef_1_05-20-2026_150720: which I, I-- it was a good testament to like, hey, we're actually doing some work over the product, but the idea is like each time there's new technology, you know, LLMs, agent-- agents, basically kind of automated LLMs, but LLMs, agents, uh, better speech-to-text, all of these things, you're always going to orient this into, into sort of how do you drive outcomes.
Now, the alternative is always you're going to buy-- buil-build it yourself, right? You, you can build anything yourself. You can build Zoom yourself, Slack, Microsoft, Gong. I don't know if you can build Anthropic yourself, but you can easily kind of build things yourself. Most revenue organizations don't feel are in, [00:20:00] in the business of building software, rightfully so, in my mind, uh, which is why they appreciate us kind of packaging all of the value, making sure that we host it, we maintain it.
We, we actually calibrate it in a way that drives the outcome versus you having to kind of try to do it yourself. Very, very few organizations can build this stuff, and even if they can, even a smaller portion of them can actually, um, get it to a place where it drives outcomes. It's very easy to quote unquote, build an agent on your machine.
Can you actually roll it out to two hundred people and make sure it actually works consistently? I mean, this is really, really hard.
seth-marrs_1_05-20-2026_080720: Yeah. I mean, it's one-- It's, it's we're kind of getting pulled into with the LLMs and do it yourself into the like I can do everything thing. It, I mean, we will swing right back to it. I think we've kind of-- I, I think we-- it's more talk about doing everything, but when it comes back to it, where I'm going to apply resources, where you should apply resources as a, as a good fiduciary to your business is to what you're good at.
And like we're in that situation, that's why we're on the phone. Like we, we aren't good. We, we do not have the competency to do what Gong does. do under- [00:21:00] what we do have the competency to do is understand what a technology can do and how we apply it to make our business better. That's, that's always ended up being the way that works best.
Why would you invest in resources even if you could to manage that, that, that part of it? And you-- Uh, the, the thing that I've always seen with that, like working with clients around it is I'm gonna build it myself. You give me the requirements and then it may be now it's three months, I give you that, and then it within three months when you've built it, it's already out of date, and then nobody wants to work on it anymore because I'm finished.
seth-marrs_2_06-05-2026_092457: metric? Like, what's the metric that is a true measure of performance? And you and I spent a ton of time hammering things out, really looking at it, and trying to figure out what those are. So I, I wanna dig into that.
And I think a good starting point for this is for us to talk through some of the obvious ones that people use every day and [00:22:00] the, the reason why we didn't select them. So let's start with the most, like, the, the most used one, which is quota attainment. So from your perspective, like, talk me through why...
Like, let's talk a little bit about why that just is not an optimal measure.
squadcaster-f146_1_06-05-2026_082457: Well, we first, let me say as you're bringing that up and, and how we came to this measure.
I, I literally looked the other day, I was going through emails to find something else, and I found the first email you sent me on this, uh, a little over a year ago. So this is, this truly has been a conversation you and I have been having for, for over a year, which in some regards, when we talk about the simplicity of where we landed, um, i- is really juxtaposed against the complexity that, that you're working against when you're trying to find one number.
But, but quota attainment in particular, um, I've become really passionate about quota attainment in the sense that the more that you dig into it, And I, I think most people probably believe this, but it, it's, it's, it's a pretty, um, uh, uh, an imperfect number maybe is a, is a h- is a, a kind way to say it. But you realize,
[00:23:00] like, it, it basically it's, it's really two numbers that are, are kind of hidden under one thing, I think.
It, it's showing you or it's trying to tell you how good the salesperson is, but then also how good of a guess the setting of the quota was. And you can never really pull those two apart. And so when most sellers have a quota that, that doesn't fit a lot of the, the c- you
know, the, the, the characteristics of their territory or the characteristics of the deals that they're, they're, uh, uh, up against, or the shape of their, of their way they perform, attainment's mostly grading the people who set the quotas, not the people that are actually carrying them.
So i- to me, quota attainment
really is only a, a good measurement of how good your planning team is at guessing the number. It doesn't really tell you how good your salespeople are. In fact, one, one-- in some of our, our research at Varicent over the last year, we, we found this, this statistic that only about sixty-nine percent of sellers are carrying a quota that doesn't match the opportunity in their territory.
So there's a huge mismatch i- in even in the quota world, uh, that attainment is built on a number that's wrong most of the time, [00:24:00] and it doesn't account for a lot of the conditions that, that really go into it.
seth-marrs_2_06-05-2026_092457: Yeah. I mean, it, companies, it's not an easy thing to do, but companies are perpetually bad at it, and there's a spectrum. So there's this assumption with quota attainment that everybody sets quota at the same level, and that is the furthest thing from the truth. Yeah. So it's like, why introduce a variable that on the seller that has nothing to do with the seller?
So like that, that, that to me as we were going through it, in, in having done a ton of analysis around quota attainment numbers, it is so true what you said. It is the person setting the number that is much, much more likely to ensure its accuracy. Like I had companies that were within like or minus 5% of their quotas and others that were plus or minus 150% of of quota.
So it's, it's... Yeah. So X that one off if you're using that. There is, there are very clear reasons why to do [00:25:00] quota we won't get into on this call. You want your quotas, but really the reason that you have quotas ideally is to be able to deploy the, the potential in your company
from I get a number I have to hit, I have to deploy it to my sales team, and ideally you, you deploy it favorably.
That, that's the reason there. But it is not the best way to tangibly see if a seller is producing at the level that allows you to, uh, that, that says whether they're a good or a bad seller.
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