Seth Marrs: Hello everyone,
welcome back to the Innovative
Revenue Leader Podcast.
Today we have the founder of
Hard Skill Exchange, Julia
Nymchitsky.
She's on today.
In collaboration with Momentum,
they just released their
predictions for 2026.
This is a rich report filled
with not only high-quality data
and insights, but also opinions
from like the who's who of
leaders in sales and in B2B and
go-to-market that really centers
on how things are changing in
this in this fast moving market.
So Julia, if you don't know her,
which you probably do, is the
founder and CEO of Hard Skill
Exchange.
She's a serial entrepreneur,
ecosystem builder, and I've
known her for what is it, like
six years, and and she's just
like she's one of the sharpest
voices on this.
And she's also one of the most
in-the-know people around B2B
marketing.
So she's helping professionals
close and organizations close
skill gaps.
And she's doing it in a way that
is really valuable.
And you could see it in the in
the Hard School Exchange Summits
and the in the practice sessions
and all of that type of stuff.
So we've worked together for a
long time.
I think it's five plus years.
SPEAKER_01: Honored to be here
and uh yeah, mutual admiration
to your work, Seth, over the
years.
So can't wait to get into it.
Seth Marrs: Yeah, let's jump in.
So, first one, uh I mean,
obviously I love being at
Sandler.
I love the the the title of it
of AI methodology, but can you
talk a little bit more around
kind of what led you to that
title for this?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, happy to.
Um, well, at HSC, we really
believe that this year, not
making any big claims, but it's
gonna be a year of inflection
points or transition, if you
will, um, from creative chaos,
productive chaos, the year of
experimentation, to the year of
methodology.
And um as with you know, any
disruption wave, like following
the work of Clay Christensen and
the innovators' dilemma that is
suddenly referenced everywhere
in every podcast you can refer
to.
Yeah.
But really, um, AI entered the
enterprise, the market through
you know, the sales and
marketing departments.
And so um we saw a real and
significant acceleration on the
technology side of things, yeah,
and it's really hard to keep up
on the methodology side.
And um, you know, the word
methodology is really particular
here.
Um, we mean uh this unification
and integration of the practical
side of things and the theory.
And I mean, obviously, to
address the problem.
And the given problem is how do
you operationalize this
innovation?
Um, how do you actually make it
work uh, you know, within your
structure, within your org,
within your workflows?
And um, this research was really
an attempt to do that.
And we captured some of the
leading voices like yourself,
and um something like AD, um
CXOs, VCs, operators, really
honored um to feature all of all
of the opinions.
And uh the the really important
point uh just to finish this
sess is um the methodology is
really there.
We do have Sandler, we do have
some other leading
methodologies, but um uh just
the technological environment
makes um just challenges the
methodology side of things to
keep up.
And uh what we're saying, it's
not finished, it's being
rewritten, it's adjusted, and
yeah, it's it's a really
interesting time to to operate
in.
Seth Marrs: Yeah, I mean, I mean
it's a great one too, because
like I you think of a Sandler
methodology, this is not this is
a part of it, but like you you
want a frame to start with to be
able to build all the cool
things.
I think everybody's investing,
like you were mentioning, is
investing in doing this stuff in
2025.
Now they're like, okay, how do I
foundationally execute it?
And I mean the the list of who's
who on this on this um
predictions report is yeah, it
there's all of the big leaders
in terms of of B2B are in there.
So it's yeah, and and and I love
the idea of it as a methodology
beyond just training.
This is not just training
methodology, it's basically a
methodology for AI for a
go-to-market engine.
Like this is like in and as you
read through the port, we'll
we'll jump in and go through
some of those.
You really tackle a lot of those
problems, and I love the way you
set it up by building and say
these are the things I'm trying
to attack, or that you need to
attack if you're gonna do it.
Then you backed it by data, and
then also backed it in with the
key voices that are living it
every every single day.
Um, let's jump into some of
these things.
Uh first one, the first
prediction in the report was AI
becomes a managed role, and and
RevOps is at the center leading
this.
If this proves to be true,
sellers will be much, much, much
more efficient.
Based on what you're hearing in
the market, will that lead
companies to focus on growth or
cost savings by reducing
sellers?
Because that's like a big fear
everybody has.
And it's always weird to me that
people just immediately go to
getting rid of sellers.
So I'm interested in how you saw
that.
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, that's
that's a that's a great one.
Um, I don't think that there
will be, you know, one universal
single algorithm that everyone
will just deploy and approach,
just uh, you know, when it comes
to um integrating AI and GTM.
And uh an interesting data point
from the report, actually.
We analyzed all of the
predictions and uh um really
distilled uh the percentage of
the leaders, and we were talking
about really, as you mentioned,
the top names in the industry.
Um what's the percentage of
leaders that really believe that
we need to re-architect the work
from first principles and
reinvent it in you know, AI
native way?
And what's something like 66%?
And uh still it's quite
significant, said that 34% of
top leaders believe that we just
have to, you know, integrate AI
to the existing processes.
That would surprise me a bit.
And then uh there is um Mark
Roberger's new framework of you
know AI disrupting GTM, which is
fascinating to me.
So he distills four phases um
how AI will essentially enter
the market.
And phase one is uh human
sellers and just AI assistance
or support.
Then we have human sellers, AI
buyers, then AI buyers, AI
sellers, and phase four is
full-blown gentic organization.
Seth Marrs: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: If you ask me, um I
really doubt that uh you know we
will essentially replace sellers
with AI completely.
But I do think that the way we
manage uh sellers and the the
sales process itself will
reinvent itself.
So um last data point, Brian
Solis, he analyzed the work of
Nvidia and Moderna and other
companies and uh you know really
incumbents in the industry.
And uh what's interesting, he's
seeing CIOs and CHROs uh
emerging as as roles that manage
agents and humans in
coordination.
So that's really exciting.
I don't know about use, but uh
for a decade or so nothing was
changing, and here like suddenly
it's like a complete reinvention
of everything.
So super exciting.
Seth Marrs: Yeah, it kind of
felt like up until 2022 things
were somewhat boring and slow,
and now the pace is just
unbelievable.
It makes sense, it'll it'll be
interesting, right?
Because if you think of like the
engine and the amount of people
in go to market, if you get to a
total buyer and total like if
it's completely agentic, that
would disrupt things in a
significant way.
I I yeah.
SPEAKER_01: My dilemma, and I'm
curious your thoughts on this.
Uh, do you think that B2B and
B2C will converge essentially?
Seth Marrs: I I I think they
kind of already have because you
get into these discussions and
everyone has their opinion of
what B2B is, and that's long
cycle, like multi-touch, like
selling, like a big complex
deal.
That's what people think of when
there's B2B, and then on the B2C
side, it's really transactional.
I think more than ever it's
possible.
I'm interested in seeing the
adoption because the reason why
B2C can be so like in-depth in
terms of knowing what's going on
is because most of this flows
through e-commerce where I could
see every single click.
If I have all of my interactions
captured for the entire like
every piece of engagement a
seller and a buyer and a and the
or a buyer and the company have
done, all of a sudden I'll be
able to do the same things, but
it's always been too
complicated.
Like sellers won't record their
conversations, companies won't
allow it.
But I think it, I think it's it
has to get there.
And I think the AI pushes that
because companies are realizing,
oh wait, I don't really want to
share my data.
Like it, like I don't want to
share my sellers' conversations,
but how do I do any of these
initiatives if I don't do that?
So exactly.
It's crazy.
Um, okay, so let's talk.
There's one that was obviously
uh a prediction that was really
important to me at my role at
Sandler, and that's enablement
becomes an agentic operating
layer.
So this means sales enablement
will shift from a support
function into an operating layer
that shifts how selling work
like how selling work is
executed.
Like you mentioned that
enablement will move beyond
training and content to
orchestration, agent-assisted
workflows.
I could not agree more.
And the like I'm just like it is
this finely feels, and it's one
of the big projects that we're
working on that we've got a path
to ROI with enablement.
Like it's we'll no longer within
a year, year and a half, it will
no longer be acceptable to not
have an ROI for enablement
initiatives.
SPEAKER_01: Finally.
Um, uh, we do have some you know
heavy hitters in uh in in this
prediction.
We featured Mark Reverse, the
original CRO from HopSpot, and
then uh Zoom Infos, CR Row, and
I mean the god of CROs, really,
John McMahon and um uh Kelly
Hipper.
Um so um they all seem to align
on this trend to be the most
meaningful and actually
significant for AI and GTM 2026
per se.
And how can I disagree?
Um, though uh I'm really curious
to hear about the ROI
implication set from you know
your work at Sandler.
Um I do think that ROI, uh
specifically within you know the
time frame of this year, is just
an open question.
Definitely there are a lot of
productivity gains and
acceleration.
Um but when it comes to
measurable financial returns, I
do think that it's still too
early.
And the reason is um, as you
mentioned, um we don't really
know what the market will look
like.
So currently the enablement
systems are really addressing
you know the market conditions
of the last five years, 10
years.
Um, but we are already seeing,
you know, the iPhone, like bots
just validating your calls, uh
screening calls.
Uh then a lot of leaders, like
we have we featured uh John
Miller, who really created the
category of marketing
automation.
And um he believes, and Scott
Brinker, that this year we'll
have just screening agents for
emails.
And it's really likely
considering you know the spam
factor.
And I mean, just open your
LinkedIn.
I guess like there will be a
post just uh speaking to the
problem.
And um it's just uh I'm not even
mentioning the the Google um
recently released bots, like the
you know, buying bots.
So we don't know how the buying
journey will look like.
And I think that that's such an
important um just aspect of
enablement.
Seth Marrs: Yeah, I'll give you
my perspective on it because
like I think jobs will go away.
Like you already, I mean, if
you're if you're not really
trying to automate automate
inbound like that, and really
because it it you need to use
agents to automate inbound.
There are pathways to do that,
to do that today in very
systemic ways.
The way that I look at it from
like an enablement standpoint,
like like typical sales
methodology enablement pieces,
is no one has ever really been
able to truly prove one, are you
actually using it?
That's a thing that's just kind
of assumed.
I I pay all this money for
training, am I actually using
it?
The answer is usually fades over
time, and and when you get six
months in, it's maybe, but kind
of no.
And then the other side is how
do I measure it?
So, like I I'm thinking about it
in terms of when we believe we
have this set of things that a
seller should do when they're in
the in a dialogue with the
customer, because that is still
happening, still happening a
ton.
It's still uh and it still will
be a major part of the buying
process, at least until we get
to agents buy from agents type
stuff, yeah, which I think is
down the line.
I there's a change management
aspect that'll slow that down.
But the way that I see it is
when I use the methodology that
I was taught, do I succeed more
than when I don't?
And that's like where my head is
around trying to get it done.
And I think it's possible.
It's possible with conversation
intelligence, possible with how
you do role play, it's possible
with how you aggregate data
together.
But you need to really so that's
like when I focus in there, it's
gonna be that's where you get to
the ROI.
I want to know if you're using
this, is it really working?
I think it's gonna be scary too
for methodology providers
because it may not work.
Like it's like you're gonna
actually have to see.
I'm using this and I'm getting
no different results, or I'm
getting a lot better results.
Like, obviously, we believe
we'll have better results, but
that's not there, it's never
been really proven, like but in
any of this stuff.
So yeah, it super it'll be super
interesting to see how that
plays out, and if like even like
if you if it can actually be
pulled off.
Um okay, so let's talk a little
bit.
Like another one that you had
was systems of action replace
systems of record.
And this is something that that
obviously I've talked about a
lot with revenue orchestration
platforms, how this works.
Like, I don't believe a CRM is
the place a seller should work,
I think it's an option, usually
a really bad one, and that in
order for you to have a true
tool, you need a tool that is
providing better capabilities
around your execution of the
action.
So, like, I think CRM vendors
have lost focus on this.
So, so they aren't really
leading that shift anymore.
Like, since CRM vendors are a
poor system of action, is this
the time where leaders in
orchestration do step forward
and provide valuable technology
for sellers and it kind of
becomes recognized?
Obviously, we did the wave uh a
year ago at Forrester on this,
and then Gardner just Dan
Gottlieb did the the Gardner
wave on orchestration.
So there's a path there.
Does it finally step forward is
something that everybody needs
or understands they need?
SPEAKER_01: I knew this
prediction will resonate with
you after sharing your work.
Um, I really broadly agree with
you.
And um the only open question is
um through my lens, whether this
category, you know, be cemented
as revenue orchestration.
Um you know, I mean, obviously,
there's no reason that just
sellers should spend 30% or so
selling.
We saw this data for the last
what, like 10 years or so.
Yeah, that's every Salesforce
state of sales, just the same
regurgitation and nothing
changed.
And yeah, it's it's definitely
an exciting time now.
But um as an operator, um, I
really witnessed um the
transition and emergence of this
category.
Um, and by that I mean, and
obviously you know, like from
basic integration and
synchronization and conversation
intelligence, outreach and you
know, sequencers, and then
revenue intelligence, and now we
call it revenue orchestration.
I'm really, really excited about
the work that Writer is doing,
Seth.
Um, Mayhavi per se and um, you
know, the YEGO, their CMO, um,
they were sharing that um they
work with uh just uh big
corporations uh in the US and
beyond, and uh they're
rethinking everything from
really AI native first
principles that I mentioned and
re-architecting platforms and uh
the integration of AI.
And so the open question is um
like uh again, back to Clay
Christensen, like a will it be
an incumbent that will disrupt
this category?
I don't know, Agent Force.
Uh, or uh, you know, will it be
an AI-native disruptor?
Like we have this um founder,
Amos, from Swan AI.
We feature him quite regularly
on the show, and uh, it's three
founders that are just hitting
10 million ARR.
Just three founders and agents.
And uh yeah, so that might come,
the innovation might come from a
disruptor like that.
Or we also possible scenarios,
all of the recordings, like uh,
you know, otter the most common
and adopted.
Um, will they actually become a
system of action?
They can, but you know, it's
it's still TVA.
Or uh you interviewed Amit from
Gong last time.
Um, so also an often question
like perhaps Gong will just
cement this category as revenue
orchestration.
So what do you think?
Seth Marrs: Yeah, I mean, you've
seen it in like when you well,
analysts in general have I mean
Gong sits a long ways away from
the orchestration piece, but I
think it makes sense.
Like the disruption isn't the
thing that's always been
interesting to me is how little
people care about conversation
intelligence.
Like they when and I've talked
to founders around the
orchestration space, and they're
like, Yeah, we'll build it, it's
no big deal.
And then AI comes out, gong's
dead, because they like that.
That's just it's like this like
it it and and now you're sitting
there, the biggest player by a
mile is Gong, and they're
they're centered on that
conversation, which is all the
fuel needed to do really cool
things with AI.
So I think it makes sense.
And like you see some of these
other vendors, it's interesting
to hear about Swan, but others
that are saying, I'm gonna just
re-architect CRM in general and
create it, right?
So I the next year or two, I I
do agree with you.
I think it's probably gonna be
the the biggest threat.
Well, will some will be will
someone come and do something
completely different that takes
this thing on?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because the
legacy players are still
building on the legacy workflows
and you know, the established
foundation.
So it's really exciting to see.
Um, we talk with a lot of
vendors at HOC, and it's really
exciting to see the new
categories for me.
I'm trying to see the patterns,
but sometimes it's just so
different, Seth, that I can't
put it in a certain bucket.
And I'm used to just segmenting
this stuff.
unknown: Yeah.
Seth Marrs: Yeah, like so like
we we you know, Nicholas, he
does the market scapes around
this, and like talking to him
about just how hard this is to
put into place and trying to
figure out where these buckets
are.
They're constantly moving, and
companies are always trying to
be bigger, and and now we're in
this consolidation phase.
Two or three years from now,
we'll be back in the the the
point solution phase is just
this cycle that everybody's
depending on where you are, you
want to be in the consolidation
if you're bigger, and you want
to be in the point solution if
you're smaller.
Um, one other thing, because I
know we're running out of time,
like the the the one data point
that stood out to me um that
that that you get that you put
out there was this whole thing
around this dissonance between
like people saying because I've
seen it in multiple reports 100
adoption, 80% adoption.
In yours, you talk 78% adoption
in terms of the surveys, but
then the actual adoption of AI
was 7.6%.
Like they like how do you
reconcile that?
Like the the like if this is
actually true, doesn't it put
most of these predictions at
risk?
Because if nobody's using these
tools the way they should be
using them, then like all of
this stuff is more like dreamed
up by founders and and the
vendors in the space rather than
being practically used.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great
question.
Well, I think that can bring us
back to the title of the report,
which is in pursuit of AI
methodology.
And one could add in pursuit of
AI ROI, really.
Seth Marrs: Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, it makes sense.
SPEAKER_01: And you know, people
when when they talk about AI
adoption these days, it feels
like they are talking past each
other.
And by that I mean um, like if
you just look at Gartner Hype
Cycle, um I mean the last time I
checked, I saw something.
Like dozens of AI modalities and
micro types, like from
neurosymbolic to uh just simple
things like you know, ML and
then agentic, and like so many
different ambient stuff things
you say.
And um, so AI adoption really
depends on what kind of AI are
we talking, where, like what
workflow, what organization, and
a lot of variables that are um
that could be questioned.
So I'll give you a simple
example.
We host AI summits every
quarter, as you know.
And last year we did the first
summit in the industry covering
a full-blown landscape of AI, a
genetic AI in GTM.
And I I'd say for the shelf life
of that content, as exceptional
and excellent as it is, it's I
don't know, like one quarter
max.
And then we immediately
transition to this multimodal AI
agents, agent swarms, and now we
have contextual AI and ambient
AI and Euro symbolic.
And so it always evolves and
evolves and evolves.
And um when it comes to that
data point specifically, it
comes from momentum's research,
actually.
So the publicly available data
states that 70%, like in all
other um great reports that were
released by IBM, you know, like
and all of the greatest
consultancies, they um they
state that yeah, it's
universally 70% like market
adoption.
Seth Marrs: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And according to
Momentum's customer data, it's
7.6%.
So a lot of variables come, you
know, into question here.
What kind of AI, uh, what
specific use case, and I just I
hate to be nerdy, but I I don't
think that it just invalidates
the prediction.
I just think that it actually
explains that the ROI discipline
actually hardens.
Seth Marrs: Got it.
So going back to the report,
it's now the time to take that
seventh point.
The opportunity is there to take
that and turn it into the 70%.
If you could just get that
methodology across, then now the
values are already there.
Awesome.
Julia, always great to talk to
people thank you for doing that.